No mention of the copy module. Is this open for discussion? Raymond had written: >My first draft included: > copy, glob, shelve, pickle, os, re, math/cmath, urllib, smtplib >Guido's thoughts: >- copy tends to be overused by beginners While Guido offers no evidence, I have no evidence to dispute him. Let's accept it as true. [Snip] >While I think of copy() and deepcopy() as builtins that got tucked away >in module, Guido is right about their rarity in well-crafted code. Accepting Guido is right and you are right in acknowledging that, why is it that you, nonetheless, think of copy()/deepcopy() as displaced built-ins. I would argue because you acknowledge they are conceptually core - though (we are accepting) not functionally core. OTOH, functionally, haven't some built-ins been growing copy methods? Could be wrong about that - seem to get that idea somewhere. Is it unreasonable to argue that hiding - isn't that is what is being advocated, in essence - something that is arguably conceptually important, cannot properly be considered to be a service to beginners? Is it totally out-of-left field to argue that confronting "copy" forces a confrontation with the fundamentals of assignment - perhaps the most subtle concept faced in approaching Python. Particularly difficult because the beginner does not know to expect subtleties. I would argue that these subtleties are *always* surprising - particularly and importantly because of an important missing clue. That clue, specifically, the existence of copy. I had always assumed that the absence of copy()/deepcopy() from built-ins was for 'big boy' reasons. And accepted it as that - feeling, in general, that the big boy issues should override the 'good for beginners' issue. And only take up the cause of copy() to the extent that - on better evidence - it appears to be being handled as it is for paternalistic reasons. I am closer to being a beginner than most. And nonetheless have in all debates concluded with some confidence that what makes sense for Python, independent of any focus on the needs of beginners, is in fact what makes sense for beginners. I believe that - at core - that is a position respectful of Python and its BDFL, though it seems to put me consistently in conflict with it and him. Art
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