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This page falls within the scope of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate.
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Addition to Note C suggestion

I notice the {{Like whom?}} template is missing from Note C, which reads: The templates {{Who}}, {{Which}}, {{By whom}}, or {{Attribution needed}} are available for editors to request an individual statement be more clearly attributed. Also, the template {{Where}} is similarly nowhere on the page. Not a big deal I suppose, just pointing this out. 5Q5|✉

This RfC concerns List of countries and dependencies by population.

This discussion asks 2 questions:
  1. Given that an electronic encyclopedia or gazetteer is a permanent work in progress over longer periods of time, how appropriate is the relative time expression 'today' in the context of this list article.
  2. Depending on the outcome of the opinions to Q1 , should 'today' be replaced by 'as of [date]', or another suitable explanation that the dates in the table might not be as up-to-date as inferred by the use of 'today'?

Proposed by: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:45, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This RfC concerns a current case in one article, List of countries and dependencies by population. However, depending on the discussion the outcome may have implications for other articles, and/or the Manual of Style. It is also possible that such a guideline already exists but which may be hard to find, unclear or ambiguous, or simply not known to or not recognised by some edititors.

(Previous and/or major contributors to the article and its talk page and parent projects have been notified of this discussion in strict accordance with WP:CANVASS)

Guidelines

Other (for this RFC):

Issue

List of countries and dependencies by population is a fairly high traffic article with 960 page watchers and 529,816 page views in the last 60 days (as of 6 June 2022). This does not mean however that the article is regularly updated. The page has been edited by 12 users since since the beginning of 2019. The lead paragraph closes with:

Also given in percent is each country's population compared with the world population, which the United Nations estimates at 7.96 billion today. –(The bolding is mine)

One editor added a {{when?}} tag to the sentence. This was followed by another editor replacing 'today' with: as of 2019.. This was then reverted back to 'today' by another editor with the edit summary: Nope, this is a population clock, so the number is as per today. Every day.

The main section of this list article is its table. Whether or not the populations are automatically updated by the 'population clock' sources such as for example in the template {{data Brazil|poptoday 1}}, the table column 'Date' shows many different years for the 243 sets of data in the table, going back to the oldest of 2015. According to their dates of retrieval, many of the referenced sources in the table do not appear to be from 'today' , or even from 2022.

This discussion asks 2 questions

1. Given that an electronic encyclopedia or gazetteer is a permanent work in progress over longer periods of time, how appropriate is the relative time expression 'today' in the context of this list article.

2. Depending on the outcome of the opinions to Q1 , should 'today' be replaced by 'as of [date]', or another suitable explanation that the dates in the table might not be as up-to-date as inferred by the use of 'today'?

Please answer in the Discussion sub-section below. Begin your comment with an asterisk: *

Proposed by: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:45, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

(Please note that this is a discussion and not a straw poll with 'support' and 'oppose' !votes. The closer will assess the consensus.)

That's a very valid comment Alpha3031. A moderate to high traffic article with frequently changing content does indeed need to be regularly updated. That's why statements in the lede or the body text need to reflect the actual state of the claims made by the authors. I have written several Wikipedia articles, and I am fully aware of WP:OWN, but rightly or wrongly, I've always taken care to update them when necessary. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:28, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The point of this RfC is exactly that not all the data is automatically updated every time the article is loaded. The UN source is only one of the many sources used. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's an RfC Jonesey95, because if you read the preamble,, you'll see that of WP:BRD B and R have already been done - the change was disputed. This is the 'discussion' phase. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:06, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Bold edit that was Reverted (by me, by the way) was the insertion of the phrase as of 2019, simply because it was erronous. --T*U (talk) 06:46, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I read it a couple of times, and it looks like "today" was replaced with "as of 2019", which is inaccurate. It should have been replaced by {{date}}, I'm pretty sure. Automatic date calculation is used at the top of the big table, so there should be no problem using similar code in the lead. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:11, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It does say in the preamble that this is not a straw poll and that discussion should take precedence over 'support' and 'oppose' !votes , even if some users have been lulled in to believing that RfC are based on numerical results. Hence, as it has only been open for barely 48 hours, and as there are two questions to be discussed, it would probably be fair to allow the discussion to run until more of the notified users and those seeing the the notifications have had an opportunity to chime in and it becomes clear that no further comments will be forthcoming. Not all Wikipedia contributors remain glued to their computers 24/7 as is evidenced by the very participation of the 'regular' authors/maintainers of the article in question. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:13, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
'as of today' was first introduced to the article on 22 August 2018, and by 27 April 1921 had become simply 'today' at 7.96 billion and is still 7.96 billion today 11 June 2022. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:17, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As I pointed out above, the figure attributed to the UN in this list is not their daily estimate but a number calculated by a Wikipedia template from their 2019 estimates of World population and daily increase. We would do better to use a figure such as the 7.9bn given in Demographics of the world or the UN figure ("as of 2022") of 7,954m. PamD 05:57, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We should not say "as of today". It is occasionally appropriate to say "as of [current date]", using a template that automatically substitutes the current day, month and year, when the statement and reference are both also using templates that update daily. — Bilorv (talk) 17:50, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
PamD, I would think that is probably the most appropriate solution. The main thing is that readers are not lulled into assuming that all the population figures in the article are accurate and up-to-date. Without prejudice to the final consensus of this discussion and an official closure, I have been bold and edited this high traffic article to reflect this suggestion, and included the source. If anyone has a different opinion, it can naturally be modified or reverted, the original text is commented out with <!-- --> tags. However, I have not edited the first entry in the table as I am not sufficiently confident to do this without breaking anything. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:16, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The table in the article certainly seems very complicated. I think the result would be achieved if instead of {{worldpop}} we had a new template {{worldpop-UN}} which produced a figure, currently 7,954,000,000, for the current pop and was manually updated each time the UN dashboard produced a new figure (annually?). But I think discussion on that article's talkpage might be needed. The template {{worldpop}} seems to be used in seven articles including this one (but the use in OPEC is absurd as it is the "world" figure in a column headed "Population (2018 est)"!). PamD 12:59, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your examples are fine SnowFire when used in the right context as you have explained very clearly, but perhaps the MoS needs to be updated to reflect and advise upon these differences. Hence the very reason this RfC was published on Cent rather than being solely a one-article issue discussed on the article's talk page. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:33, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'd really like an outsider opinion/reassurance that changing euphemisms to be less offensive towards disabled people is a worthwhile thing and is consistent with the MOS:EUPH guidelines. I've received heavy pushback from one editor @Mathsci who considers these changes silly. I think that the guidance is crystal clear on this. The current contention is about the phrases confined to a wheelchair or being wheelchair-bound. I've tried to raise a conversation about this issue on the talk pages but those conversations seem to just be [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Laughing_Under_the_Clouds#Choice_of_language rehashes ] of this one , which was already discussed on this page.

Smasongarrison (talk) 23:37, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Smasongarrison is making indiscriminate edits about plots and fictional characters in films. Often these concern comedy cartoon films or horror films (Madagascar or Frankenstein vs. Dracula). They have developed a robotic automated script, which is gradually developing. In this fictional context, it is inappropriate that these fictional plots or character descriptions should be mangled in this way. No thought seems to been applied, no reflection; they haven't bothered checking proof-reading or reading through the articles.
In the case of Charles-Valentin Alkan, they have tried to process the same stable wp:featured article twice, despite being warned by user:Smerus and me. On previous occasions, they have taken no notice (there were previous complaints in 2018). Smasongarrison's edits appear periodically on my watchlist (sometimes with articles subject to WP:DS). For example, in May 2022 they made edits to Ted Kaczynski, which were reverted. On Talk:Charles-Valentin Alkan, they brushed off problems they were doing, declaring "I don't have the bandwidth to itemize their responses". It has been pointed out to Smasongarrison – who has no formal medical training – that the use of British English terms "suffering a stroke" is standard and cam be found in stroke advice for emergency treatment in the National Health Service. That seems not to have not registered with Smasongarrison, who has made four edits about Charles Dickens recently. The same with Samuel Johnson, a featured article. It's easy to see that the script is crappy: sometimes the Smasongarrison bot-script find "disabled" and does nothing; sometimes there will be replaced by an anachronistic euphemism. Who knows what the Smasongarrison script will do with the wp:featured article A Christmas Carol and the word "crippled".
The automated edits to the article Željko Đurđić shocked me: Smasongarrison's script produced unintelligible content and, given that it was of stub length, no proof reading had occurred. I had to make several corrections myself, taking into account the subject's personal circumstances. Mathsci (talk) 01:03, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm following MOS:MED guidance and this discussion. The script is a human being who looks at the edits and tries to be careful. Please keep the issue focused on the style guide, not on your concerns about me as a human being. I really don't appreciate being called a bot. I try to be responsive and engaging when editors raise concerns and have tried my best.
I'm not perfect, but I think that mathsci is focused on me instead of the actual issue. [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mathsci#%22Suffering%22 ] Smasongarrison (talk) 00:55, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to ping a few folks who were involved in the discussion @Liz @User:Johnbod. But honestly, I'm just going to take a break because I had forgotten how distressing I find dealing with Mathsci. Smasongarrison (talk) 01:04, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Nobody would start doing this on Dracula vs. Frankenstein. This is a horror film, so clearly fictional. Being able to distinguish between fact and fiction is important. Please note WP:CANVASS (which is usually frowned on). Note also that the misguided edits to articles on fictional plots show a deliberate choice on the part of Smasongarrison; instead of following wp:consensus, Smasongarrison harms wp:featured articles. In the context of horror films or animated movies, these are not real medical conditions but just poorly devised scripts concocted by Smasongarrison's themselves. As far as I am aware, Smasongarrison has never created substaintial content on wikipedia. They have made offensive edits concerning editors who, like me, have suffered from stroke. Mathsci (talk) 01:37, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What would happen with the plot summary of What Ever Happened to Baby Jane? It is fictional. Mathsci (talk) 01:47, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry that I offended you by editing the term suffer within the context of a stroke. My intent was never to offend. I was genuine in my offer to avoid editing the term. However, I don't think that there's anything I can say to convince you that I am a good faith editor who has made substantial contributions both here on wikipedia AND as part of the 'poorly devised bot' team. I make mistakes and try to be responsive, and I agree that I've made mistakes (I do my best to correct them). But, I really need you to try to assume that I am a good faith editor. And I would like to convey that the last time we interacted, I was trying to navigate my own grandmother having a stroke. I was trying to distract myself by doing non-controversial edits, and I did my best to avoid conflict by shifting away from the term, because that seemed easier than explaining the nuances of ableist language. Smasongarrison (talk) 01:53, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless, it's really clear that this conversation has derailed. And, that there's nothing I can say to convince you that I'm a netgood to wikipedia. And that the reason the "script is crappy" is because I am being very intentional with my edits. That indeed 'sometimes the Smasongarrison bot-script find "disabled" and does nothing' because I'm using discretion and am I person. But obviously this isn't a productive conversation. Smasongarrison (talk) 02:07, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Overzealous script use aside, @Mathsci: characters and plots being fictional is not on its own a sufficient justification to relax editorial standards wrt. how we describe them. Fictional characters with disabilities are, of course, not harmed by the use of ableist language, but the living humans who read those descriptions can be. This is why, for example, we don't use racial slurs to describe characters in Huck Finn, in spite of the author himself doing so. Avoiding potentially stigmatizing/biased language does not inhibit Wikipedia in providing an accurate and useful synopsis.
I don't consider myself qualified to judge the acceptability of terms like wheelchair-bound, although "suffering from [stroke/heart attack]" (i.e. an immediate painful symptom, not a chronic disease or disability) doesn't seem especially objectionable. Kudpung's input is appreciated. RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 17:08, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
These are ableist terms. Wheelchair-bound is negative as it emphasises that some is bound i.e. tied to and therefore limited to their wheelchair which is stigmatizing and overly negative. Outside of wikipedia, I have some experience with Diversity and Inclusion. More inclusive language is wheelchair user, who uses a wheelchair etc. There's an article from the BBC, UK government guidance and Greater Manchester Coalition of Disabled People. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 17:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As a friendly note to all involved, a Request for Comment closed in December 2021 found no rough conesnsus to change the manual of style to deprecate those two phrases nor to issue any guidance in the Manual of Style against their use. For reasons of WP:CONLEVEL, this sort of thing should probably go through an RfC if there is desired change. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 02:37, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that's super helpful! I hadn't seen that. (I'll make sure to use look through that in the future when I'm looking at AWB edits.) Smasongarrison (talk) 02:49, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Since "wheelchair-bound" and "confined to a wheelchair" are most commonly either wrong or not provably true, they can be changed on a case-by-case basis even though there is no consensus to deprecate them in MOS. The terms are only accurate if a person cannot move or stand without a wheelchair for any length of time; even then, they have offensive connotations. However, this particular dispute seems to be about something other than contesting the manual and careful change of this inappropriate language. — Bilorv (talk) 17:56, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I had hoped that it was just a misunderstanding... and that could be cleared up without conflict (like last month). Unfortunately, he's decided that personal attacks are acceptable, as is following my edits. I've asked him to stop repeatedly, unfortunately, he seems to have done this kind of thing before and blocking doesn't seem to stop him from doing this kind of thing. Smasongarrison (talk) 18:39, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the first time editors have pointed out problems with these bot-like edits: articles pop up periodically on users' watchlists (often the great & the good, but very long dead – like Dracula – or is he part of the undead ...). The circumstances when I suffered stroke have been mentioned before (while editing WP). In NHS documentation, the term "suffer a stroke" is used. The edit above does not seem related to MOS issues. But returning to animated movies, is Tom and Jerry politically correct? See Tom and Jerry#Controversies. Mathsci (talk) 22:21, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mathsci this conversation is about wheelchair users and the use of wheelchair terminology. I know that you disagree with MOS:MEDLANG about the use of the word suffer. You've already expressed your opinion. You have been asked by admin to leave me alone. I now understand why you have strong feelings about strokes. I have tried to be responsive by leaving the word stroke alone. I literally removed it from my source code and added practically every page you edit to my list of pages to avoid.
I have really tried. I am not perfect. I am truly sorry that I re-editing the pages that upset you. I was trying to check over my previous edits.
But you need to stop reverting my edits. There is a policy about this WP:SUFFER and a very recent conversation about this terminology on this very page. I have tried my best to be receptive to your concerns and have disengaged when I did not have the emotional energy to argue with you at the time.
Regardless, it seems to me that you have a history of doing this to editors who disagree with you. That makes me uncomfortable. Frankly, the fact that you hold this much anger toward me really concerns me. Please leave me alone. I really don't want to fight with you over this. If you want to change the policy over on MOS:MEDLANG feel free to try. Please stop hounding *me* over it. It is not my policy.
You've been warned by a lot of admin over this kind of behavior over the years, including very recent requests by @Liz and Hammersoft: for [1] I don't want this to escalate. I genuinely want you to leave me alone because your have a long history of following users who upset you. Please spend your energy elsewhere. I have apologized for offending you and I'm trying my best to avoid you. Ask yourself if you really want to be spending your time hounding a disabled woman for making edits that are less offensive in describing disabled people. You don't have to like me, but please, leave me be. Smasongarrison (talk) 23:59, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mhawk10: That seems like an overreach for that RfC closure. That there was no consensus to deprecate means there was no consensus to codify exclusion. That's all. It doesn't even mean there isn't consensus to prefer one set of terms to another. There's a huge range of words/terms that wouldn't get consensus to deprecate, even when existing guidelines make clear Wikipedia should generally avoid them. As long as something should only be avoided most of the time, it's unlikely to find consensus to deprecate. In other words, that there was no consensus to deprecate only means that -- it has no bearing on how existing guidelines are applied to articles. If Smasongarrison wanted to formally deprecate the terms then, yes, we'd need an RfC, but I'm not seeing that -- I'm seeing them replace the terms where it's appropriate to do so. This looks related. You're reading [the indeed awkwardly phrased] "The phrase committed suicide is not banned at the English Wikipedia" at WP:MEDMOS and reverting based on that, when the entire rest of that bulletpoint provides reasons not to use that phrase. That something isn't banned doesn't mean it's preferred -- so much preferred that it's worth reinstating when someone changes it to one of the "other appropriate, common, and encyclopedic ways to describe a suicide" that aren't "stigmatising and offensive to some people". — Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:04, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, my qualifier of if there is desired change was meant to refer to changes to the MoS itself, rather than changes to a particular article. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 19:13, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll repeat what I said last time this came up:
Smasongarrison's edits seem largely constructive to my eye, based on a spot check. It's worth differentiating between conditions/disorders like cerebral palsy and e.g. a snowboarding accident in which someone broke their ankle. Most of the arguments I've seen about avoiding ableist language are more about the former than the latter. Still, whether we cite this guideline or something like WP:TONE, "X broke her ankle in a snowboarding accident" sounds more encyclopedic to me than "X suffered a broken ankle in a snowboarding accident".
Coming back to the present, I'm most interested in why Mathsci thinks this sort of edit is an improvement such that it's worth making multiple times. Smasongarrison and others have articulated reasons why it's preferable to say "had Asperger syndrome" rather than "suffered from Asperger syndrome", but I'm not seeing good arguments to the contrary apart from some of the changes being fiction and the phrases not being explicit deprecated, which aren't very convincing IMO. The stroke example is one which I think is a somewhat grayer area, but many of these edits are pretty clearly improvements. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 03:10, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The edit about Alkan was not made by me, but by User:Smerus. I know about Alkan and Schumann because they both used the pedal piano for Bach's chorale preludes (e.g. for BWV 622); Smerus knows far more about Alkan than me and has photographed one of his instruments in Paris. He was the main creator of the featured article; it's written in British English and the use of the word "suffered" is normal. Given the timing, it's hard to see whether Smasongarrison read or digested the articles on either composers: they do not seem to have been selected with any particular rationale, just some kind of alphabetical order. The mental problems of Alkan and Schumann are well known to musicians (I've attended lecture-recitals about the Schumanns and Brahms in that context).
Rhodedentrites can check the 40,000 edits of Smasongarrison to see whether there are any edits that contain substantial contributions to namespace. I checked a while back, and could see none. Today I randomly chose this diff and noted that Smasongarrison "allowed" the word "suffered", so that the bot-like automated script is unreliable: During the last ten years of his life he also suffered much from epileptic attacks was changed to During the last ten years of his life he also suffered much from epileptic seizures.
At no stage has Smasongarrison explained why they are "disabled". Mathsci (talk) 04:23, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The 1884 Yale obituary is a copy-paste for the article:
NOBLE BENNET PICKETT, the eldest son of Bennet and Sarah (Giddings) Pickett, was born, January 19, 1801, in Sherman, then the North Society in New Fairfield, Conn. In his early manhood he spent ten years in teaching, while at the same time pursuing his own studies, in medicine and other subjects. In the September after his graduation he was married to Laura Giddings, of Sherman. He then settled in professional practice in North East, Duchess County, N. Y., but a year later at the urgent request of friends removed to Great Barrington, Mass., where the rest of his life was spent. His medical skill and his earnest religious character made him much beloved. He was also specially interested m the educational work of the town. He served as a member of the State Legislature during two sessions, in 1851 and 1852. His public services were cut short by blindness, which overtook him about 1870. During the last ten years of his life he also suffered much from epileptic attacks. He died suddenly at the house of his only child, a daughter, in Great Barrington, February 5, 1884, in his 84th year.
Mathsci (talk) 05:35, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The edit about Alkan was not made by me - ??? You made the edit immediately following the one I linked and then restored the text again shortly thereafter (though Smerus did make one such edit, too). I would concede that, even though the reasons provided by you and Smerus weren't IMO very good, Smasongarrison shouldn't have made the same edit three times. They should've sought help elsewhere.
it's hard to see whether Smasongarrison read or digested the articles on either composers ... Rhodedentrites can check the 40,000 edits of Smasongarrison to see whether there are any edits that contain substantial contributions to namespace - I suspect when it comes to knowledge of this subject, nobody would challenge you and Smerus. Truly, I find the expertise of some of the editors who work on classical/opera articles impressive. Where I'd disagree is that knowing about the subject is necessary to change "suffered from Asperger syndrome, schizophrenia or obsessive-compulsive disorder" to "had Asperger syndrome, schizophrenia or obsessive-compulsive disorder". Some people spend their time reverting vandalism, some people adopt a typo to change across articles, some people fix dashes/hyphens, some people format references, some people remove promotional language, etc. Smasongarrison changes phrases like "suffered from Asperger syndrome" to "had Asperger syndrome", and given both this guideline and WP:TONE, that seems like a net positive that isn't going to vary all that much based on subject (i.e. an athlete, composer, and politician can all "have" Asperger syndrome without the need to say they "suffer from" it).
noted that Smasongarrison "allowed" the word "suffered", so that the bot-like automated script is unreliable - I do believe you've just provided evidence against the repeated assertion that they're making automated edits. BTW use of WP:AWB is allowed to find instances of specific phrasing. Users are responsible for each edit they make, and if they're making too many mistakes, they may lose access to AWB, but mere use of it to find those phrases is not a problem. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 12:52, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

FYI I left a pointer to this discussion at WikiProject Disability. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Without looking at specific edits that may be problematic, I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with changing "suffered from" or "suffered" to "had". On the other hand, I'm not sure that anyone considers a stroke anything other than a negative experience. This makes me wonder whether we would say "enjoyed great success" or would "achieved great success" be better or is that still a judgement? How often do we imply failure is bad and success good? Is it too stigmatizing to say someone was "cured", that they were "healed", or that they "recovered"? Does that imply diseases and injuries are bad? Aren't diseases bad? Looking at the introduction to disease it says "A disease is a particular abnormal condition that negatively affects..." Is Smasongarrison going to be ok with that or will it eventually to need to be sanitized and neutered? —DIYeditor (talk) 20:46, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • The phrases confined to a wheelchair and wheelchair-bound should be avoided as they frame the disability and the assistive device in a negative light. They are also factually inaccurate in most cases: wheelchair users are neither physically bound to their chairs (except if falling out is a danger) nor need to remain in them, and many are in fact capable of walking, just not great distances or not consistently. Users tend to regard their wheelchairs as instruments of liberation, not places of confinement.
  • Avoid saying that people "suffer" from or are "victims" of a chronic illness or symptom, which may imply helplessness: identifiers like survivor, affected person or individual with are alternate wordings. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:34, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think there are some issues with the MOS:ALLEGED guideline, most specifically that 'alleged' and 'accused' need discussing separately. These two words do not hold the same meaning. While the MOS:ALLEGED guideline holds water for the likes of "supposed, apparent, purported, alleged, so-called", this follow-up: "alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined, such as with people awaiting or undergoing a criminal trial; when these are used, ensure that the source of the accusation is clear." is too vague and blurs the distinction between 'alleged' and 'accused'. These two words have different nuances and relationships with proof. 'Accused' as a term notably casts no aspersions about the proof or the accuser. See the definition: "claim that (someone) has done something wrong.". 'Alleged', on the other hand, often implies that there is either no evidence, the evidence is false or the accuser is only making an accusation to cast aspersions of something negative over the accused. 'Alleged' is what a lawyer rebutting an accusation might jump up and shout in court. See that definition: "said, without proof, to have taken place or to have a specified illegal or undesirable quality." - note the emphasis on "without proof" and its relationship in meaning to "undesirable qualities". 'Alleged' is all about aspersion. It is my feeling that MOS:ACCUSED should have its own section separate to MOS:ALLEGED where the difference between 'accused' and the 'alleged'-type weasel words are clearly laid out. (All definitions are from the Oxford Dictionary.) Iskandar323 (talk) 06:59, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

EEng has deleted do not use “issue” for “problem” or “dispute”. [2] This is a recent change in use, which started out as a euphemism for ‘problem’ but seems to be treated as a standard usage by young people. There is now a semantic problem with this, because it may be unclear whether ‘issue’ is used to mean ‘issue’ or ‘problem’. So I would prefer if this wording was reinstated. But I’m not sure that it should be in the Euphemisms section. Sweet6970 (talk) 11:26, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand how that differs from standard usage. Merriam-Webster has "1a(1): a vital or unsettled matter; 1a(2): concern, problem; and 1b: a matter that is in dispute between two or more parties".--Trystan (talk) 12:55, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My dictionary (Oxford Concise) has it differently. The first meaning is about issues of shares, magazines, etc. Meaning 2 is about an outgoing, outflow etc. Meaning 3 ‘a point in question; an important subject of debate or litigation’ Meaning 4 ‘a result; an outcome; a decision’. Meaning 5 ‘ Law children, progeny’ Meaning 6 ‘ archaic a discharge of blood etc.’
There is no mention of ‘problem’.
So it may be that this is a difference between British and American English, as well as a difference between recent and traditional usage. ::Sweet6970 (talk) 15:02, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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