Attendees: - Neil Soiffer - Louis Maher - David Carlisle - Bruce Miller - Deyan Ginev - Paul Libbrecht <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-regrets>Regrets - Murray Sargent <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-action-items>Action Items <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports *ACTION:* We are skipping the August 28 intent meeting. The next intent meeting will take place on September 4. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-2-progress-on-spec-writing->2. Progress on spec-writing? None. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-3-charter-extension-timeline-review>3. Charter Extension Timeline Review - Start date: First teleconference *(done)* - Start date + 3 months: Candidate Recommendation, MathML Core *(done)* - Start date + 5 months: Candidate Recommendation, MathML 4 *(Dec, 2025)* - Start date + 5 months: An implementation of MathML-to-speech/braille that makes use of Check accessibility annotations *(mostly done, 2 implementations)* - Start date + 9 months: Proposed Recommendation, MathML Core *(Apr, 2026)* *ACTION:* NS: Perhaps I should push this back to summer 2026 to let Igalia finish their work, and we have time to react to their implementation issues. Check with BK about the schedule change. - Sept, 2024: First face-to-face meeting *(TPAC) (done)* - Start date + 18 months: First Public Working Draft, MathML Core Level 2 *(Sep, 2026)* *ACTION:* Check with BK about this FPWD timing. - Start date + 20 months: Proposed Recommendation MathML 4 *(Oct, 2026)* - Sept 2025: Second face-to-face meeting *(TPAC) (probably won't happen)* - Start date + 24 months: First Public Working Draft, MathML 5 *(Dec, 2026)* *ACTION:* NS: The major unknown would be a Pr for a core, and a first public working draft for Level two. Check with BK about this. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-4-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-449-intent-properties-ordering-amp-references-issue-449-a->4. Intent Properties: ordering & references Issue #449 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449> (can we reach a resolution?) DG: You should read Bruce's Natural Language Description before you start reading my algorithm, because it just tried to crystallize. Bruce's description https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449#issuecomment-3059074914 Deyan's algorithm is based on this description. *ACTION:* Everyone should read through what DG and DC wrote on inheritance, and see if there are differences, and if the differences matter. *ACTION:* NS: Next meeting, he will take an example and walk through dg's and DC's algorithms. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-agenda>Agenda <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports *ACTION:* We are skipping the August 28 intent meeting. The next intent meeting will take place on September 4. Alexandra Lacourba alex@w3.org Sent a message concerning some details about TPAC 2025 which will be held from 10 to 14 November 2025 at the Kobe International conference center: ------------------------------ <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-registration-and-registration-fees>Registration and registration fees The Early Bird rate at USD 370 will expire at the end of 23 August. The Standard rate at USD 680 will apply from 24 August, until 20 October. Register and pay via: https://www.w3.org/register/tpac2025 Details about registration, registration fees and fee waivers are available at: https://www.w3.org/2025/11/TPAC/registration Schedule:: https://www.w3.org/2025/11/TPAC/schedule.html#new PL said that we have adopted the task of maintaining the German MathCAT. We have a fully automated process where the translator uploads a file, and then it gets rendered on all the coursebooks we want to look at. The translator produces tool tips with speak aloud because sighted types have a problem listening to NVDA's MathCAT driven math output. The point of this system is to let sighted authors check the accessibility, for the blind, of their Mathematics. DC: In other news, we have completely broken NVDA, so I get no math in PDF anymore, which is a bit of a pain. It worked two days ago, and it doesn't work now. NS: It could be a dll file that has been overwritten. PL: What is the best way to report things? NS: Put it in the MathCAT issues. DG: With the upcoming release of LaTeXML, I will enable the intents on archive documents, so, there'll be a very basic Archive. We'll have more next year. Copilot said LaTeXML is a powerful and flexible software tool designed to convert LaTeX documents into structured digital formats like XML, HTML, EPUB, MathML, JATS, and TEI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeXML) <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-2-progress-on-spec-writing->2. Progress on spec-writing? None <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-3-charter-extension-timeline-review>3. Charter Extension Timeline Review - Start date: First teleconference *(done)* - Start date + 3 months: Candidate Recommendation, MathML Core *(done)* - Start date + 5 months: Candidate Recommendation, MathML 4 *(Dec, 2025)* - Start date + 5 months: An implementation of MathML-to-speech/braille that makes use of Check accessibility annotations *(mostly done, 2 implementations)* - Start date + 9 months: Proposed Recommendation, MathML Core *(Apr, 2026)* *ACTION:* NS: Perhaps I should push this back to summer 2026 to let Igalia finish their work, and we have time to react to their implementation issues. Check with BK about the schedule change. - Sept, 2024: First face-to-face meeting *(TPAC) (done)* - Start date + 18 months: First Public Working Draft, MathML Core Level 2 *(Sep, 2026)* *ACTION:* Check with BK about this FPWD timing. - Start date + 20 months: Proposed Recommendation MathML 4 *(Oct, 2026)* - Sept, 2025: Second face-to-face meeting *(TPAC) (probably won't happen)* - Start date + 24 months: First Public Working Draft, MathML 5 *(Dec, 2026)* *ACTION:* NS: The major unknown would be a Pr for a core, and a first public working draft for Level two. Check with BK about this. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-4-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-449-intent-properties-ordering-amp-references-issue-449-a->4. Intent Properties: ordering & references Issue #449 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449> (can we reach a resolution?) NS: We have two opinions on how to deal with this. DG wants to be very specific, with a specific algorithm, and DC wants to be less specific, and more descriptive with, with some general wording and examples. DG: We need to have clarity on the inheritance aspects, and which properties inherit and how. DC: I don't think there is a difference that the algorithms are highlighting, which is why the algorithm looks more complicated than I'd kind of hoped. DC: The examples are only there to be helpful. I believe the text specifies exactly what should happen in all cases. We could remove the examples. DG: You should read Bruce's Natural Language Description before you start reading my algorithm, because it just tried to crystallize. Bruce's description https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449#issuecomment-3059074914 Deyan's algorithm is based on this description. *ACTION:* Everyone should read through what DG and DC wrote on inheritance, and see if there are differences, and if the differences matter. *ACTION:* NS: Next meeting, he will take an example and walk through dg's and DC's algorithms. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-zoom-math-wg-intent-meeting-summary-2025-08-21->Zoom Math WG Intent Meeting Summary (2025-08-21) <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-summary>Summary The team reviewed progress on German accessibility features for mathematics courses and addressed issues with Mathcat's speech functionality and NVDA compatibility. The group also discussed timeline adjustments for MathML specifications, documentation approaches for property inheritance rules, and compared different algorithms for intent expressions in mathematical notation. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-team-updates>Team Updates David mentioned that a group, including Neil, Brian, and Murray, has been working on core specs and has assigned open issues to team members. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-german-math-accessibility-progress-update>German Math Accessibility Progress Update The team discussed progress on German accessibility features for mathematics courses, where Paul reported having a third of the implementation complete with an automated process for rendering translated course materials. They addressed issues with Mathcat's speech functionality and its interaction with NVDA, with David noting that recent changes had broken PDF math support in NVDA. Neil requested that Paul submit any remaining bugs to the Mathcat issues tracker this week, as he is preparing for a release and his NVDA release helper is on vacation. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-mathml-timeline-and-resource-planning>MathML Timeline and Resource Planning The group discussed the timeline for MathML specifications, including candidate recommendations and proposed recommendations. They agreed to keep the proposed recommendation for MathML4 in April 2026, but moved the first public working draft of MathML Core Level 2 to September due to potential staffing issues. David expressed concerns about having enough resources to edit both MathML Core and Full specifications. The group also decided not to plan a second face-to-face meeting, and discussed the possibility of moving forward with a working draft of MathML5 despite being out of charter. Neil will check with Brian about the timeline for MathML Core Level 2 and the first public working draft. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-property-inheritance-documentation-debate>Property Inheritance Documentation Debate The team discussed different approaches to documenting property inheritance rules, with Deyan advocating for a specific algorithm while David preferred a more descriptive, example-based approach. David explained that properties effectively follow inheritance patterns through their descriptions and default rules, making explicit algorithms unnecessary. The group agreed that the current examples could be removed as they were redundant given the clear text specifications, though Neil noted that explicit documentation could be valuable for unclear cases. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-intent-expressions-in-mathematical-notation>Intent Expressions in Mathematical Notation David and Neil discussed the interpretation of intent expressions in mathematical notation, focusing on how to handle references and properties. They clarified that when following a reference without an explicit intent, the inferred intent should be used, which aligns with how the surrounding context is interpreted. David emphasized the importance of expanding arguments to form a larger intent expression when necessary, distinguishing this from inheritance. Paul highlighted the need for a minimal approach, acknowledging that different implementations may interpret data input differently. Deyan raised questions about the interaction between silent properties and function properties, which David addressed by proposing a rule to inline properties on references while ensuring the resulting intent is legal. Neil noted the potential for conflicts when interpreting inline properties and suggested a left-to-right override rule to resolve such issues. <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-algorithm-comparison-review-discussion>Algorithm Comparison Review Discussion The team discussed comparing two algorithms, with Neil suggesting an action item for everyone to review both David's and Damien's versions using example cases and identify any differences. David noted that he would be surprised if the algorithms produced identical results in all edge cases, and the team agreed to take a break for a week before reconvening on September 4th. Neil mentioned that he and David might work on specification writing during this break, with David planning to start on argument name PR changes.
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